The Battle of Midway Roundtable Opening Remarks

Many disscussions this month.  First of all Ed Fox shared some of his experiences on Midway during the 75th celebration including some pictures of the bunker he spent the morning attack hunkered down in.  Col John E. Miniclier who was also in the 6th Defense Battalion also attended the event on Midway and has some comments for us.

A couple other items of interest were brought up this month based on Dusty Kliess' new book 'Never Call Me a Hero' where he questions the decisions by Spruance and Fletcher as to why they sent out the Torpedo Squadrons when the torpedo they were equiped with as well as the aircraft flown were obsolete or defective.  And to a degree why did the torpedoes and Torpedo bombers work at Coral Sea only to fail at Midway.  Was the  success, or perhaps perceived success, a contributing factor to the decision to use them against the Japanese fleet at Midway?  Or did the situation dictate a full scale attack regardless of equipment?

Much more to get to so enjoy.

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Ronald Graetz

From Bill Vickrey:
July 4, 2017

I was sorry to hear of Ron’s passing as I knew him quite well and knew that he was ill but had not exchanged emails with him in – I guess – two months.. I visited with him several times when I was in San Diego on business. My wife was with me once and we took Ron and Sally to dinner then walked around the U. S. S. MIDWAY. I also seem to remember that I saw him at an ENTERPRISE reunion. I feel sure he was the last rear seat man to fly in a TBD at Midway...Lieutenant Colonel Lloyd Childers (VT-3) USMC (Ret) was the last I know of to pass away before Ron. On the spur of the moment, I only recall one other living Midway rear seat man but suspect there are a few.

Bill

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Routes Each Air Group took to Kido Butai

From Zoran Vlahović:
July 1, 2017

Can you send route attacks from the aircraft carriers Enterprise and Yorktown, in Attachment is route attack with the aircraft carrier Hornet,

Thanks and greetings from Zoran Vlahović, Croatia, Europe



Editors Note:  I have several maps of the flight paths of both Yorktown and Enterprise groups.  However they appear in books and are copyright so I'm a little reluctent to publish them here.  But I could get you the names of the books so you could see them for yourself.  I thought for sure we had a map of the carrier flights on the RoundTable other than this one but I can't find it.  I'll look through some of the archives and see if at one time we did publish one.

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SBD Questions

From John Lupander:
July 4, 2017

When I wrote a book (in Swedish) on the Battle of Midway in 2004-06 I also communicated by e-mail with the SBD veterans Lew Hopkins and Clayton Fisher. (A file with the dust cover enclosed).

I asked one of them exactly that question regarding how the attack dive was initiated and the gist of the answer I got was: "Any way whatsoever as dictated by circumstances, in particular the targets relative position". This included wing-overs, a half-roll and even just diving straight ahead (disregarding the negative G's).

The dive brakes were deployed immediately before commencing the dive - it would appear that they would heavily impact the behavior of the plane in normal flight.

The bomb fork that was intended to swing the released bomb clear of the propeller arc was a common arrangement on many dive bombers, such as the German Ju-87 "Stuka". I suppose the fork and bomb were balanced and installed so that gravity and aerodynamic forces would swing them out when the bomb release was pulled, after which the bomb fell free from the fork.

Kind regards,
Johan Lupander
Sweden

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Lessons Learned From Midway

From Don Boyer:
July 5, 2017

Thanks for the great issue once again.  I've been following with interest a lot of the by-play regarding the "lessons" from the Battle of Midway over the years. One I seldom see even hinted at is the lesson we learned that the Japanese were not anywhere near as good at naval combat as they thought they were. A harsh comment, to be sure, and debatable based on their tough fighting during the Solomons campaign, but overall a fair assessment. We never turned away from a battle against the odds -- Midway was proof of that -- and that was the key to defeating the Japanese at sea. We learned we had the edge on them, and never lost it after that.

Regards,
Don

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Editors Note:  You're welcome and thanks. I have to agree with you that they thought they were better than they actually were. However having said that I think their subordinate commanders were quite good, especially the Naval Air arm and lessor units like Cruisers and Destroyer commands. However as with all rigid command structures, Nagumo, and others, were up for command when the war started. Something the US also struggled with. Just look at the number of submarine commanders that were replaced or requested relief of command in the early days giving way to the younger men. Problem was men like Nagumo did not understand Naval Air power. When spotted and unable to strike he turned towards the enemy instead of away from them. He was operating under the training he had been indoctrinated with in that you close range when trying to destroy your enemy if you have the superior force. McClusky and to a certain extent Ring flew past the intercept point believing to a degree that it was more than likely Nagumo would retreat until he had re-armed his planes rather than turn towards the US fleet. Even they thought he would try to avoid getting hit while not being able to hit back himself because the nature of Naval warfare had changed dramatically as proved by the attack on Pearl Harbor. Clearly McClusky was thinking along those lines but Nagumo didn't or couldn't.

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Midway vets on U. S. S. MIDWAY

From Bill Vickrey:
July 5, 2017

I knew two of the veterans.

Geoff Blackman was the navigator on a PBY in VP-23. His PPC was Lieutenant (jg) Harold Lough and his co-pilot was Ensign Gale Burkey – former NAP. I was privileged to be an honorary member of the VP-23 Reunion Association and attended some of their reunions. I knew Burkey very well and stayed at his home several times while I was in San Diego. One time I spent most of a week on his sheltered patio with SHINGLES. At another time Geoff arranged for us to play golf at – I believe the San Diego Country Club and – if I recall correctly – he picked up the tab. Geoff got a DFC and three Air Medals. On 04 June they flew in the sector next to Howard Ady. They picked up Troy Guillory (VS-8) and his rear seat man Billy Cottrell whom I knew quite well. They flew 13.6 hours on 04 June 1942.

Ellis Skidmore was an Aviation Radioman 2/c in VP-44 at Midway. His PPC was Lieutenant (jg) Carl Bauer, his co-pilot was Ensign Harry Metke and his Navigator was Ensign Henry Noon. They also flew 13. 4 hours on 04 June. I also an honorary member of the VP-44 Reunion and was the speaker at a VP-44 Reunion at The Marine Hotel in San Francisco and visited with Commander Noon there and may have also visited with Skidmore. At the least, I had a good deal of correspondence with him. Ellis had 752 hours in flight time as of 01 June 1942. He got his wings as a NAP on 15 June 1943 and was commissioned the next day.

I will try to get in touch with these two men.

Bill

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75th BOM Memorial

From Ed Fox:
July 5, 2017

Sorry bout the late data on our invitation to Midway Atoll. Responsibilities here at home required my full interest. I am attaching a few attachments for now and write a note concerning our exciting and emotional privilege while on the Island.

One can locate information on the USFWS​ sites regarding the Battle of Midway 75th Anniversary.fws.gov (What is new on Midway Atoll) I will write you a note soon. The visit to Midway was exciting and emotional.

http://usfwspacific.tumblr.com/post/31000842713/war-and-peace-at-midway-atoll-national-wildlife

http://www.wow.com/wiki/World_War_II_Facilities_at_Midway#

https://www.c-span.org/video/?429286-1/symposium-reflects-75th-anniversary-battle-midway#

July 6, 2017

The attachment is from the local newspaper, which appeared while I was on Midway. My daughter, the paparazzi for my event, shot some 6 hours of video and many still shots, all of which appeared on Face Book ------ an item too advanced for my era. I had met some of the most gracious people one could ever have the honor to meet.


July 10, 2017

Often asked "what was the routine up to the battle?"



July 21, 2017

Took me awhile to locate these images, image below is identical as to my gun position on southeast Sand Is.  The Chief from the USS Hawaii and myself visited the concrete bunker that is identical and its location on the Southeastern portion of Sand -- that was duty assignment from January to middle of June 42. We were ordered under ground during the aerial attack. If one was not assigned to a AA site, you were ordered underground. This was where I spent the first 17 minutes of the Japanese attack.



Here are some more pictures.  Click on the picture to see a larger image.


July 16, 2017

Here is the latest issue of the Gooney Gazette II.



In this issue, we share stories about Midway’s past, present, and future—stories about the Battle of Midway 75th Anniversary Commemoration, warplanes, salutes, flags, bravery, archaeologists, explorations, undersea relics, albatross eggs, chicks, boluses, science, art, and still more. It’s an issue too good to miss.

Click here  to download the Summer 2017 Gooney Gazette II or visit http://www.friendsofmidway.org/blog/gooney-gazette-ii/  

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6th,Defense Battalion, Midway Island

From Col John E. Miniclier
July 6, 2017

Greetings,

I think I may be the last member of the original U.S. Marine Corps 6th Defense Battalion so let me tell a little about my life.

I was born on 23 July 1921 in Morgan Park, Duluth Minnesota.

After graduation from high school in 1940 I joined the Marine Corps. My brother Gordon would join the Coast Guard. My eldest brother would be in the Red Cross.

I enlisted in the Marine Corps as a Private, 21 dollars a month, on 4 August 1940. Boot Camp was at MCRD San Diego, California. Signed up in Minneapolis, Minnesota so west of the Mississippi River went to MCRD, San Diego and east of the river was trained at MCRD, Parris Island. I was assigned to 2nd Defense Battalion and then to 6th Defense Battalion, both units at MCRD, SD. In July 1941 we sailed as the 6th Defense Battalion to Hawaii on the USS Wharton. I arrived, with over 900 other Marines, on Sand Island, Midway Atoll on 19 September 1941, as a Private First Class. I was in G battery and we were responsible for searchlights, sound locators. and control stations. Radar was not fully developed. The sound locator looked like three separated large horns, with two operators providing information to the control station operator, who used a binocular to try to visually locate the target air plane...The control station operator, when directed, could call for illumination and put a beam of light on the target. Then anti-aircraft guns could use there instruments to fire at the target. On Midway the searchlights also covered enemy ships and landing craft.

On 7 December 1941 Midway was shelled by two Japanese ships. One of our searchlights illuminated one ship and was put out of action by enemy fire. One enemy shell went through a port opening of the bomb proof deck of the power plant, killing and wounding Marines, including First Lieutenant George H. Cannon. He directed his men be taken care of first, he died and was awarded The Medal of Honor, for his actions.

I was on Sand Island,1941, 1942 and Eastern Island 1943. During late 1942 promoted to Corporal and then to Sargent.

On the 23rd of this month I will be 96 years old and the next day my good wife of 71 years, Margaret, will be 95 years old. If you would like the next chapter let me know.

My daughter Peggy will be here for our birthdays and she went with me to the 90 anniversary on Midway, as well as our recent nine day trip to Hawaii and Midway Atoll for the 95th BOM so she can help write the last chapter.

Sincerely,
Colonel John F Miniclier
USMC (Ret)

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Editors Note:  Thank you very much for the note. Yes I would be very happy to have any notes, chapter, or history of your time on Midway or during the war for that matter. I just received a note from Ed Fox who attended the 75th celebration on Midway. He was also in the 6th Marine Defense Battalion on Midway during the battle although I'm not sure he was an original member of the Battalion. Did you get to meet him? He is also writing a few notes about the celebration and such. You both have been long time members of the Battle of Midway RoundTable so I would hope you did get to meet.

I'll put your notes from this email in the next newsletter and look forward to more when you have time.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write. It is very much appreciated.

Here is my note to Ed Fox:

Thank you very much for the note and the newspaper article. I have a question. I just received a note from Colonel John F Miniclier USMC (Ret) who was also in the 6th Marine Battalion on Midway during the battle. He says he also attended the 75th celebration on Midway although it's not clear if he just went to Hawaii or to Midway itself. I'll ask. I did find he attended the 70th celebration. Did you happen to meet him while you were there? He wrote up a little note about his time there during the war and sent it to me to see if I'd be interested in putting it on the RoundTable. He says he thinks he might be the last surviving member of the Original 6th Marine Defense Battalion but we both know that's not true unless Original means joined when it was formed or something. One of the reasons I'm asking if you met him at the celebration and if you know him.

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From Ed Fox:
July 7, 2017

Yes I did meet the Col. both on the 70th and 75th. He is probably referring to his original back in the States. A fine gentleman but rather distant to try and be a friend with. He was on Midway for both the 70th and 75th memorial services with me. I have several photographs of the Col. I thought I had sent you a publication of us together. I will ask my daughter to retrieve one or two for you. His daughter was also with him.

Semper Fi

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John Waldron

From Barrett Tillman
July 7, 2017

Last month I taped a 90 minute interview with producers of a South Dakota organization that's honoring John Waldron. (My affiliation with the BOM TBDs was roundabout--my younger brother's godfather was Grant Teats' fraternity brother at Oregon State!) During the discussion of what VT-8 might have done otherwise, I wondered about Waldron simply Following Orders. Even knowing that Ring was frabbed up, Waldron could've preserved his squadron and returned honorably rather than making that port turn off base course.

But IMO it just wasn't in him. He was a warrior in the middle of the war's biggest battle. He could do nothing other than what he did.

SOMEWHERE there was mention that he was in line for CHAG since he was the sr. squadron CO but Mitscher insisted on cronyism. Imagine how things might have gone with Waldron instead of Ring. Maybe we wouldn't have lost Yorktown.

Barrett

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Editors Note:  I'm familiar with them. John Mollison drew some of the artwork and invited me up. I was going to attend the dedication they had but work got in the way as it was on a Friday if memory serves.

Waldron was in tough spot either way. He knew Ring was off course but also that it was likely Ring would run the TBD's out of fuel trying to find the Japanese where they weren't. So at some point he was either going to have to sacrifice his squadron by following Ring and running out of fuel or he'd have to disobey Ring and turn around before it was too late. Turning around to save his squadron would likely gotten him court marshaled as Ring was not one to let disobeying direct orders go no matter what the circumstances. As it was the Fighters eventually had to turn around and none made it back and many of VT8 and VS8 didn't either although some managed to find Midway. If I remember right only he and his two wingman made it back to Hornet.

I'm going to go off on a tangent of sorts and I hope you find this interesting. I first found a game called Midway by Avalon Hill when I was growing up. My brother and I played it constantly when we were kids. Later after college and when better games became available I used to set up carrier battles using the game Flat Top and it's sister game CV. I say set up because I'd have two teams, a Japanese Team and a US team, but separate them by having each at a different house. I'd be the moderator at another house and give them information by phone only they would know based on scouting reports, battle damage they thought they inflicted based on pilot reports, etc. So now you have the setup. Several times I set up Midway as the battle.

What I learned from this was a fascinating study in command and experience. We invited history professors to participate, ROTC students, military commanders, and of course a number of people that just loved to play the game. The long and short of this was that even a little experience triumphed every time. Not too surprising I suppose but it was the way they did it made for some interesting articles later.

Why I bring this up is because I watched carrier commanders that never were in a game before make the same mistakes commanders at Midway and other battles actually did. And from history they knew what happened. In some cases the professors taught the battle. But it just isn't always easy to make the right decision at the moment when things are not crystal clear. A number of times experienced people could not convince an inexperienced commander in the game the right course of action.

Waldron was lost due to a really inexperienced man at the helm, or really two men. I do think if he was in command that day he would have led the Hornets planes to the Japanese fleet and that the Hiryu would probably have been attacked and put out of action with the other three. But even in war it is a good ole boys club. And unfortunately good men die because of that. In our games only cardboard died and people learned from the experience. I always like to compare Midway with Santa Cruz to see how experience was put to use later in the year on both sides.

Thanks for the note. Hope I didn't bore you too much.

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From Barrett Tillman
July 10, 2017

Little confidence that I have in the USN justice system, I gotta think that leaving formation rather than putting 15 irreplaceable attack aircraft in the water would be upheld. Or maybe I have more faith in Ray Spruance than in the USN justice system! But am pretty sure no proceedings could have gone ahead w/out TF CO approval.

Break-break

Your description of the Avalon Hill game variant is intriguing. Had that game myself plus Jutland, which I modified on occasion with vintage torpedo aeroplanes. Actually played BOM a couple of times in college, as I was astonished to find a dorm mate who was seriously knowledgable about the IJN. Seemed to know most of the capital ships down to CAs.

Anyway, youbetcha. Separating the players geographically certainly adds a realistic dimension.

I used to see Larry Bond fairly often via a mutual friend when I was um seeing a gal in the DC area. Larry of course is best known for the Harpoon game series but he did other things as well. He said that at a gaming conference probably in the late 80s an active duty PO1/c predicted how a NorLant game would go, in surprising detail. Somebody asked him why he didn't get a commission, and he said: "What? And lost my seniority?"

Larry told a story about a large (huge) scale gaming club that used ship models in a deserted parking lot Sunday mornings. On one occasion, replicating Matapan, the game was called on account of a drunk emerged from the bistro and stepped on the Italian flagship...

Yours
Barrett

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Editors Note: I would hope that Spruance or Fletcher would not have pressed the issue if Waldron had simply turned around rather than run out of fuel if he had stayed with Ring.  I remember reading somewhere that Waldron had doubts that Ring was aware of just how little range the TBD's had and if he did turn around it would be without any kind of communication due to the radio silence so to Ring it would amount to disobeying orders.  My thoughts along this line is there any information anywhere on what Ring did after he returned to Hornet.  I know he wrote up a report but that was replaced by Mitscher's so we don't have anything from him directly.  So we're not really sure if Ring new all of Torpedo Eight had perished attacking the Japanese fleet till later.  When was it known on Hornet that Waldron had found the Japanese fleet?  I'll have to follow up on that thought.

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VT Squadrons and Mark 13 Torpedoes

From Paul Turner
July 12, 2017

Hi can anyone help me.  I just read Dusty Kleiss' book Never Call Me a Hero.  I enjoyed it tremendously but it raised a question about American torpedoes.  I read somewhere that the problems with them was that the Americans stole the technology from the Germans who had similar problems early in the war.

Regards
Paul Turner

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Editors Note: Thanks for contacting the RoundTable. American torpedoes were developed separately and completely without foreign intelligence or influence. Although the submarines torpedoes suffered the same misfortune as the German torpedoes the German torpedoes were activated by a compass rather than a coil system so were completely different. Neither worked was the common denominator but little else.

As for the aerial torpedoes the Germans had a fairly reliable torpedo while the American torpedo suffered from a severe handicap of never being tested enough which was the same reason the submarine torpedo failed. The torpedo was extremely fragile and could not be dropped from a great distance or it would break up on impact and even if dropped in all but the most favorable conditions still tended to run deep. One of the several reasons I have read over the years why the torpedoes worked so well at Coral Sea on the attack on the Shoho, and even that was debatable because the Shoho went down so quick, was because Lexington and Yorktown did not have the new torpedoes available.  I have read that they used the older Mark 10's I believe which was a remarkably good torpedo. It just didn't have the punch the newer ones had with only about 1/2 the explosives.  But that is also debatable.  Another reason was that the Mark 13 Mod 0 rather than the Mod 1 was what was available on the Lexington and Yorktown and the Mod 0's worked a lot better than the Mod 1 but only 156 were produced before they were replaced by the Mod 1's.  Yet another source claims that the Mark 13's were Mod 1's but due to the temperature of the water being warmer the torpedo actually worked somewhat better.    When I get some time I'll try and track down a little more info for you.

So to answer your question, the American torpedoes were not developed with stolen technology from the Germans.

Hope this helps.

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From Scott M. Kozel
July 20, 2017

I just got and read Dusty Kleiss' book _Never Call Me a Hero_. An excellent book overall, a valuable resource.

He was very critical of the admirals' decision to send the TBD Devastators with Mark 13 torpedoes out to attack the Kido Butai. He said that the torpedoes were proven to be virtually useless with less than 10% actually hitting a target and exploding in the past in WW II combat. He disputed whether Shoho was sunk by Mark 13s at Coral Sea, he said that bomb near misses looked similar to torpedo hits from a distance. He clearly labeled TBD missions at Midway to be a suicide mission.

I thought that most historians attributed the rapid sinking of Shoho in about 10 minutes to multiple torpedo hits. Aerial bombs would not do that as was seen at Midway.

Is it fair to call this a suicide mission with virtually no chance of hitting any ship with a torpedo that actually explodes?

Or were the needs at Midway so critical that it justified deploying obsolete aircraft and problematic but usable torpedoes?

Scott M. Kozel

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Editors Note:  Thanks for the question.  If I remember correctly the reason the torpedoes worked at Coral Sea on the Shoho is due to the fact they didn't have the latest Mark 13 Model 1's but the older Model 0's which actually worked fairly well.  (See above) Again just going from memory and maybe others will have a better memory. All I really remember is that Lexington and Yorktown didn't have time to receive the newer torpedoes in time for Coral Sea but that might not be exactly right.

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