Roundtable Forum
Our 26th Year
July 2024
In this issue.
Roundtable Opening Remarks
List of aircrew decorations
Documented History of the Battle of Midway
Doolittle Plane 16
A Brave Texas Pilot
VT-8 TBF Det at Midway
Interesting BOM Video What If?
Waldron Grandson
Announcements and Questions
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The Battle of Midway Roundtable Opening Remarks
Welcome to the July issue of the Battle of Midway RoundTable. This month we have a number of submissions on a variety of subjects. One particular article which is indirectly related to The Battle of Midway is the Doolittle raid. Although not directly related the raid nonetheless was possibly the key that led to the battle. Before the raid the Japanese were not keen to Yamamoto's plan. After the raid that changed and the plan was approved. One B-25 that landed in Russia after the raid and this is what the article is about. I added some history to Mr. Crosby's submission for those not familiar with the reason the aircraft landed in Russia.
Also besides The Battle of Midway my other interest is reading accounts of the very early days of the war. Recently I picked up a book I had overlooked when it first was published. Dawn of Infamy was published in 2016 and previously in 2010 under the title Voyage to Oblivion. Based on the 2016 title I passed over it as I thought it was yet another book on Pearl Harbor. Voyage to Oblivion was published in Great Britain and I'm not sure why it didn't peak my interest back then.
The book is about a lone lumber carrier, the Cynthia Olsen, spotted by the Japanese submarine I-26 on December 6th, 1941 and shadowed till the morning of the 7th and sunk as the first Japanese strike was arriving over Pearl Harbor. The Cynthia Olsen frantically sent out a distress signal that they were under attack by a Japanese submarine. Several radio operators picked up the distress call but in the chaos that ensued as a result of the raid on Pearl Harbor it was in vain. Only one ship heard the call and was close enough to respond, that being the Canadian warship Prince Robert. Unfortunately it took 8 hours to arrive at the scene of the attack and by that time Cynthia Olsen and I-26 were both gone. A long search of the area found no trace of the ship or crew. The distress signal was the last heard from the Cynthia Olsen and she along with her crew vanished with no trace.
Although the story was reported in the US and in Hawaii newspapers a few days later the fate of the ship and crew remained a mystery. The account of the attack comes from the commander of the I-26, Minoru Yokota, one of the few Japanese submarine commanders to survive the war. Interviewed years later after the war by such authors as Gordon Prange and others he related that due to torpedo shortages I-26 was given 10 old torpedoes of dubious reliability. Instead of a torpedo attack he surfaced, fired a warning shot across the bow, waited until the crew had taken to the lifeboats before using the deck gun to sink the ship. One crewman on the submarine even took a picture of the attack and clearly the lifeboats are gone and the davits have been swung outboard indicating the crew had abandoned the doomed ship. Several other crewmen that served on the I-26 during the attack collaborated their commander's story long after the war in a crew
reunion in Japan.
The story contains the history of the Cyntia Olsen. Built during WWI she served under several owners as a west coast lumber carrier till late November 1941 when chartered by the US government to transport lumber to Hawaii. The book goes into great detail of the timing of the attack, that according to Minoru Yakota took place at 3:30 Tokyo time, which was the time the attack on Pearl Harbor was to commence. Analysis of the radio intercepts by various operators that picked up the distress call are included although somewhat inconclusive as to the exact time they picked up the call given the odd way the time zones exist in the area vs where they were or on what time the ship was using or when they changed clocks when crossing zones as well as operators on the west coast who logged the call.
The cover of the book Voyage to Oblivion has the picture of the ship as she is on fire and listing during the I-26's attack.
All in all a good read if you are interested in such mysteries or history on the early days after Pearl Harbor.
Until next time.
List of aircrew decorations through Midway
2024 July 1 From Barrett Tillman
Found this excellent source while looking for something else!
An appendix in Stephen Moore's Pacific Payback.
https://erenow.org/ww/pacific-payback-carrier-aviators-who-avenged-pearl-harbor-battle-midway/18.php
Quick search function yielded
86 Navy Crosses and 104 DFCs
16 Air Medals (mainly for aircrew).
Working strictly on memory here...
In The First Team volumes thought I noted more Navy Crosses than DFCs, which undoubtedly would reflect the order of precedence before the Cross was elevated latter 1942.
Barrett sends
For those who have not read Pacific Payback it is well worth the time. This appendix is from the book.
TW
Documented History of the Battle of Midway
11 July 2024 From Barrett Tillman
Another one--- Documentary History of the Battle of the Coral Sea: The Official US Combat Reports From the Naval Action Against Japan in May 1942 By: Defense Department, United States: 9781610011204: Amazon.com: Books
A Documented History of the Battle of the Coral Sea
Barrett Tillman sent this link to a book that came out in 2020. It's title above is sub-titled: The Official US Combat Reports From the Naval Action Against Japan in May 1942. A companian book was also written on Midway. As you can surmise from the sub-title each book contains all the official after action reports on each battle. While most of this information is available online if one looks hard enough for it the books are a nice reference to have handy.
The Midway table of contents is as follows:
Introduction The Battle of Midway, Combat Narrative Admiral Nimitz Action Report Admiral Raymond Spruance Action Report USS Hornet USS Enterprise USS Yorktown Action Report: Destroyer Commander USS Hammann The Japanese Story of The Battle of Midway Interrogation of Japanese Prisoner
While there is nothing new as these reports have been available for quite some time the books are a nice way to have all reports in one place. They only available softbound so are reasonably priced. Click on the image below to take you the the Amazon page where you can purchase the books if interested.
Doolittle Plane 16
11 July 2024 From Jeffrey Crosby
I just got done reading a book about plane 16 of the Doolittle raiders...it's mission was not to bomb Tokyo but to fly onto Russia and land there on purpose to see what Stalins reaction would be. This was known to only 2 people at time of mission. one thing of note...BOM was mentioned as were other IJN battle plans...the timing of many of these battles was rushed because because Japan could not ascertain whether or not Russia would side with or oppose Japan in some of these conflicts and the US and Russia never really trusted each fully in WW II operations.
Certainly the true nature of why one B-25 flew to Russia remains elusive even at this late date. In brief there were some fairly mysterious circumstances surrounding the aircraft. The 16th plane added to the raid was actually plane 8, or the 8th plane to take off from Hornet, as they were notated at the time. Why it was there is even more of a mystery.
The end of Jimmy Doolittle's feasibility report to General "Hap" Arnold concluded with the statement, "Should the Russians be willing to accept delivery of 18 B-25-B airplanes, on lease lend, at Vladivostok our problems should be greatly simplified.…". So he was advocating for the US to contact Russia and see if the aircraft could land in Vladivostok rather than fly on to China after the raid. If the US had indeed asked there is no record of it and likely even if they did via diplomatic channels there is no paper trail. Regardless it was or probably would have been revoked as Russia was none too willing to open another front against Japan if Japan decided the 'lend lease' B-25's were no more than a ruse.
So why was B-25 plane 8 even on the raid? 24 crews trained for the mission although only 16 would be selected to actually take part. Plane 8's crew was not part of the training. On the last day of training one B-25 bellied in and was too damaged to be repaired in time. Plane 8's crew was made up of some left over crew members at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida where the training was taking place and the B-25 they flew was not modified like the others and they had no training. They left with the B-25 after the other 15 had already departed for the west coast. Plus all the B-25's in the training program had their carburetors adjusted to fly the 2000 or so miles estimated to be the distance they'd have to travel to make it to friendly China airfields. Plane 8 did not get this done.
Plane 8's co-pilot many years later in a letter to a friend detailed much of their story. He even said that when they took off from Hornet's deck that was the first time they tried such a thing as they never had any training to do so.
Which leaves a few questions. There were other trained crews and modified B-25's available at Eglin. Why choose an ad-hoc untrained crew and unmodified B-25 for the mission? Since the mission was shrouded in secrecy and paper trails were almost none-existant we are probably never going to know who ordered this plane and crew to substitute for the damaged aircraft. And one wonders if the original plane had not been damaged would they have suddenly been substituted anyway. The damaged aircraft might just have made it more convenient. But one does wonder why when the plane touched down in Vladivostok both the pilot and co-pilot, York and Emmens, just happened to speak Russian.
TW
A Brave Texas Pilot
15 July 2024 From Howard Ady III
A Brave Texas Pilot
The page has an audio of George Gay speaking about his attack on the Japanese fleet. I attended one of his talks on the battle a long time ago in College. He was invited by the professor to speak as the class was specfically on the War in the Pacific during WWII. Don't think I could have asked for an easier course to earn college credits. Afterwards the professor and a few of us met and talked with him at length.
He actually had a whole routine as I'm sure he repeated the story many times over and added some humor into the talk getting a laugh now and then.
TW
VT-8 TBF Det at Midway
18 July 2024 From Rick Burgess FWD from Barrett Tillman
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1964/october/torpedo-squadron-eight-other-chapter
Ferrier became a heavy attack pilot.
Richard R. Burgess │ Senior Editor, Seapower Magazine │ Navy League of the United States
From Barrett Tillman
My reply to Rick B.
THANK YOU. Had not seen that, but I was a high school freshman at the time.
Ferrier was not an aviator, spent several years in VAH maintenance.
https://www.patron2.com/files/bio/B128.html
I've noted before:
At the Midway 50th anniversary event in DC, Gay addressed a couple hundred Midway vets and historians, describing himself as “The sole survivor of Torpedo Eight.”
Afterward, I was sitting on the aisle when Capt. Bert Ernest approached—I knew him from my TBF book. Bert grinned and said, "C'mere, I'd like you to meet my radioman.” Feisty little guy stuck out his hand: “Hi, I’m Harry Ferrier. THE THIRD SOLE SURVIVOR OF TORPEDO EIGHT.” By then, Bert and Harry were used to Gay neglecting to mention the Midway-based Avenger contingent (lost five of six.)
Over the years/decades, Gay made differing accounts of what he saw, tending toward more detail as time passed.
Barrett
From James Sawruk
Barrett,
Thanks for sending. I had not seen this article. I met Harry Ferrier many years ago and we talked for quite a while. He was a real gentleman and had a good memory but his body was failing at the time. Still, it was a memorable experience.
Best to all,
Jim
Interesting BOM Video What If?
19 July 2024 From Chuck Wohlrab
Another interesting video on Midway.
The channel is called History Undone. A bit if speculative fiction. It is hosted by James Hanson. The topic is What if the US had lost the battle of Midway. The guests are Jonathan Parshall and Rear Admiral Dr. Chris Parry (Commander of the Amphibious Task Force in the Falklands War). They discuss various points at which the battle may have been lost (with varying results) and how that might shape the war. Worth a watch. And don't let the picture of the Akagi pre her 1936 conversion put you off.
https://youtu.be/cUOk5a2Nyzw?si=t4btll3ETvcrczJW
V/r,
Chuck Wohlrab
Waldron Grandson
In reference to:
http://www.midway42.org/Backissues/2024/20240401.aspx#Link5
29 July 2024 From Mickeen Hogan
I read in this issue I linked above a man named Charles Race knows Tom Ledew the Grandson of John Waldron, who was the CO of VT-8.
I am building a 1/700 model of John Waldron and Horace Dobb's TBD Devastator Bureau Number 1506 "8T16".
There is a common error people make when modeling or sketching Waldron and Dobb's TBD:
Nearly everyone puts the number T16 behind the fuselage star.
However, that is wrong. Here is a picture of Waldron and Dobbs taking off in T16 on their last mission. T16 is placed in front of the star, not behind it. If you look carefully you can see T16 on the plane.
I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but it really annoys me that everyone inaccurately portrays Waldron and Dobbs's TBD with the number aft of the star when footage clearly shows the number is in front. Sadly the sketch of the plane displayed at his memorial made the same error. It is my hope that once people start to see this they will fix it and accurately portray T16.
Just so you know, my model of Waldron and Dobbs's will portray it as it was during the Doolittle Raid. The plane had the carrier hull number on it, so instead of saying T16, the code would be 8T16, with the number forward of the star. It would also have the meatball insignia and tail stripes.
Mickeen
No need to apologize. We try to set the record straight when possible. This just happens to be a small but important detail that appears to be overlooked in the past.
TW
Announcements and Questions
Ben Fisher's artwork
13 July 2024 From Barrett Tillman
Surely appreciate Ben Fisher's work...obviously a talent. I'll just note that the impressive D3A perspective is WAY too low for a recovery. I'm guesstimating roughly pattern altitude (ours was about 90 ft). The pilot's best option for a hit is to ride 'er in.
TBD recovery efforts
30 July 2024 From Tom Tychlik
I also want to thank you for posting the article and the link to the recovery website in the May issue on the effort to recover the TBDs and F4F-3s from the Lexington. On May 1 I participated in a Webinar conducted by the Virginia Beach Military Aviation Museum given by Taras Lysenko on the effort. I immediately contacted Taras and offered my support. The thing that members of the Roundtable should know is that the aircraft are not in close proximity to the ship so there is no issue of disturbing a grave site. It’s likely the aircraft slide out of the hangar bay or off the flight deck when the ship sank. Some may even have been blown off the ship as a result of the explosions that occurred before Lex sank.
Tom Rychlik
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