The Battle of Midway Roundtable Opening Remarks
First of all wishing everyone a great July 4th. As I sit here tonight putting together the Newsletter I am remined by the fireworks outside that I am here, doing this, stepping outside to watch some fireworks, and celebrating our countries freedom due in no small part to a few that duty called on that June 4th morning in 1942. For some it was the ultimate sacrifice. For others, more fortunate, or lucky, you'd have to ask them the difference, they returned to loved ones and friends and in a few cases here to the RoundTable. Every one that was there that day, or any day during that war, I can only say, thank you. I hope my small contribution to the RoundTable and those veterans of The Battle of Midway is in some way enough. We must try to make sure that no one forgets. May we always have fireworks on the Fourth of July because of the people that duty calls.
June was a very active month as one would assume as it was the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Midway. There were many celebrations both here in the states and in Hawaii and one on Midway Island. I have not heard how that went but maybe someone who attended might chime in and let us know how it went. I tried to watch a few live streams of a couple celebrations but it seemed they were slow possibly due to people tuning in. At least I hope that was the reason.
This month we have a lot to get to but I'd like to start off by letting everyone that doesn't already know that long time RoundTable member Ronald Graetz passed away on June 10th. He attended the 75th year celebration on the USS Midway in San Diego despite being in hospice care at the time. He convinced doctors and whoever to let him attend the celebration. He had feared missing it due to his illness but he made it. Very glad that at least worked out for him.
Ronald Graetz was a radio/gunner in Torpedo 6 aboard the Enterprise during the battle. He was not chosen to fly in the morning attack, his place taken by another man. His aircraft did not return. On June 6th, 1942 he flew in the last combat mission of the TBD Devastator. By this time there were only three left in the fleet. Launched to support the dive bombers that attacked the Mogami and Mikuma they were held back due to the anti-aircraft fire still coming up from the Japanese ships. Spruance did not want to lose his only torpedo bombers attacking cruisers.
Later he went on to reform Torpedo 6 being equiped with the new TBF Avengers and participated in the battles around Guadalcanal.
I did not know Mr. Graetz personally. In fact during my time as host of the RoundTable I regret only trading emails with him a few times. But he was always a gentleman and answered my questions or those of others that were seeking information on the Battle or on men he might have known aboard the Enterprise during the early days of the war.
I do not have the date Ronald Graetz joined the RoundTable in the members list so it must have been very early on. He told several stories about his participation in the battle and they are in Ron Russell's RoundTable book No Right to Win.
I am glad Mr. Graetz got to attend that last celebration about the USS Midway and hope he got to trade at least one or two final stories. It was nice to have at least a few conversations with him even if it was by email. As has been said here far too often and far to recently 'Fair Winds and Following Seas' Mr. Graetz, a Midway Veteran and honored member of the Battle of Midway RoundTable. You will be missed.
SBD Pilot Robert K. Campbell
From Chris Carola 5 June, 2017
Editors Note: Last month I posted a link from a member about an SBD pilot who claimed to have fought in the battle. I took down the post because the gentleman in the interview was not a pilot at Midway despite his claim. Mark Horan pointed this out to me and I should have checked my sources first but did not and that's my failing regardless of the circumstances.
However on June 5th Chris Carola was kind enough to send a link to a real veteran of the battle and one who did participate in the morning attack on the Japanese fleet, Robert K. Campbell. He was in VB3 and flew in the first division. The link below is about him and what he did in the battle.
http://www.chicoer.com/article/NA/20170603/NEWS/170609909
Tone Scout Plane #4
From Jon Parshall: 4 June, 2017
Couple of points:
1) Actually, Nagumo did not trust the sighting position that was given to him by Tone #4. It was apparent to 1st Air Fleet staff that the position made no sense—it was way out of #4’s territory, and should have been in Chikuma #1’s search pattern. This is one reason Nagumo launched Sōryū’s D4Y around 0800—to go out and verify that location.
2) I pulled out my master maps file for Shattered Sword, and took a look at the relative positions of the carrier forces at 0730, which is when Amari first sighted TF 16. At that point, TF 16 was 173nm from KdB; TF 17 was 191nm; the contact report placed the Americans at 195nm. So, in fact, the error in range was only about 20nm at most, but the error in bearing was considerable (about 16 degrees). So, yes, Nagumo would have assumed that the Americans were currently out of range, even though unbeknownst to him, TF 16 was actually in the process of launching on him (and were themselves under the misapprehension that the range was only about 150nm.)
3) From everything we know, Nagumo’s decision to wait to counterattack was more heavily influenced by the fact that his torpedo planes were by 0745 now partially armed with land attack weapons. Until he was able to re-arm those aircraft correctly, the doctrinally correct solution was to wait and then hit the Americans with a full-constituted combined-arms attack with both torpedo planes and dive-bombers.
4) The more Tony Tully and I have learned about the state of the hangar decks on CarDiv 1 at this time, the more confused and chaotic the situation down there looks. Isom was right in saying that even as late as 0900, the torpedo planes probably weren’t ready to go, and probably wouldn’t have been until much later than that.
5) Likewise, Nagumo was cognizant of the fact that his morning strike force would need to come down relatively shortly after they returned, as there would be damaged aircraft, with wounded aviators, and everybody would be low on fuel.
6) Bear in mind, Nagumo *had no ability to launch immediately.* There were *no* reserve strike aircraft on any of his flight decks at *any time* during the entire morning. Fuchida’s account in Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan is a fairy tale in this respect, and is contradicted by the primary source information, as well as by Japan’s official war history series. So, even if Nagumo had decided to strike only with CarDiv 2’s dive-bombers, and given the orders immediately at 0745, he still could not have had that strike ready to go any sooner than about, oh, 0825 or so. And even *that* would have necessitated spotting the decks during the very time that Henderson, and Norris, and the B-17s were all attacking. There’s just no way in hell that was going to happen—no hikōcho in his right mind is going to tell his captain, “So, yeah, let’s spot the decks while the B-17s are attacking—that’ll be a winner.”
Cheers,
Jon Parshall
From Frank June 6, 2017
So Nagumo was actually checkmated as soon as he launched on Midway. As John stated "he had no ability to launch immediately*. (After recovering his Midway strike aircraft) In summary, Nagumo did Not make a tactical error..but had " no ability to launch" even with accurate intel.
Frank
From Lu Yu: June 15, 2017
I would disagree with Jon’s following comment regarding Tone #4 plane.
1) Actually, Nagumo did not trust the sighting position that was given to him by Tone #4. It was apparent to 1st Air Fleet staff that the position made no sense—it was way out of #4’s territory, and should have been in Chikuma #1’s search pattern. This is one reason Nagumo launched Sōryū’s D4Y around 0800—to go out and verify that location.
The following from BKS 43 p. 308, my translation.
The reported enemy position [Tone #4 at 0428] was considerably off this plane's designated search line. Therefore, the receivers should have been suspicious of the reported position. The fleet was under air attack at that time and the bridges were in chaos. For that reason, 1st Air Fleet Headquarters and 8th Cruiser Squadron Headquarters, as well as staff officers on board Tone, were inadvertently unaware of this error. Afterwards, Tone # 4 was recovered and its sketch board was checked, but Abe was also unable to find this error. {Note 50}
Note 50: 1st Air Fleet Detailed Action Report
Cheers,
Lu
From Anthony Tully June 15, 2017
I have one remark to add, and agree that it seemed the error was not caught right away ---- rather, the sequence of messages had always given me the impression the Soryu Judy is launched at0830 to maintain a believed contact with a confirmed carrier, and to relieve Tone # 4 who was known to be nearing the end of his fuel for safe return (and in fact would end up all but entreating to come back). With a good contact, it made sense to get fast high performance there asap. (And as we know the Judy did make contact).
My two cents,
- Tony
From Lu Yu June 15, 2017
Soryu’s Judy has a mini DAR contained in the ship’s DAR. Except for radio machine failure, it performed remarkably well, in contrast with Tone #4 and Chikuma #1.
The following is my translation.
0530 Launched from carrier. 0600 Sighted one enemy carrier plane. 0708 Sighted no enemy on search line and returning. 0710 Signaled "Sighted no enemy at 10 degrees 270 miles from Midway". 0800 Sighted one enemy carrier plane and followed it. 0810 Sighted enemy air [carrier] force and began contact. 0830 Signaled "Enemy air force sighted at 5 degrees 120 miles from Midway; [enemy] course 80 degrees speed 25 knots". 0840 Signaled "Enemy air force contains 3 carriers as nucleus accompanied by 23 destroyers".
0845 Contact ended and returning. 0950 Arrived over Hiryu. 1030 Landed. Suffered no enemy fire. No aerial combat.
Cheers,
Lu
From Jon Parshall June 17, 2017
Just getting back from a week in the woods without email. That’s a really interesting piece of information, Lu, and I appreciate your passing it along. It seems almost incredible that Nagumo et. al. would not have noticed that big a deviation from sighting location to where Tone #4 was supposed to be. I had always presumed that the D4Y’s launch was specifically to track down the “real” location of the Americans, in the face of what should have been an obvious error in navigation. And I guess I’d turn around the question this way: If Nagumo actually thought that Tone #4’s stated contact location was legit, why launch the D4Y as rapidly as he did?
Cheers,
Jon
From Anthony Tully June 17, 2017
Not sure where this is coming from. Have always been under the view that Soryu's D4Y is launched more to determine composition, confirm carrier, are there more, etc, and yes a definitive fix. But more in the sense of a `good complete report'. I don't recal it as spawned by fundamental doubt by the set of positions given. I don't recall ever believing the deviation was detected before the dive-bombers. Again, not as the reason the Judy goes up. The decisions about the recon Judy were natural on their own.
- Tony
From Anthony Tully June 17, 2017
One other point is that it was precisely because the error had not been detected that 1st AF staff seemed to think the Americans were too far out of range for some of their planes, one of the reasons they felt `had a bit more time' than they really did.
If I recall right, but as they say, "don't quote me" -- they didn't catch onto the error till Abe starts getting reports from Chikuma's plane after Hiryu launches, or re-plots what he has around that time when taking stock.
Been a little while since read all this, don't have it memorized fully still,
- Tony
From Jon Parshall June 17, 2017
Actually, apropos of not much in particular, when I was out in Hawaii a couple weeks ago, I had occasion to drag out my master electronic maps and measure the distances between the various formations at 0730. Tone #4’s sighting report made the Americans out to be about 195 miles distant. Yorktown actually *was* 193 miles distant at that very moment, but TF 16 was only 173 miles away, and launching. Of course, Spruance et. al. thought they were at least 25 miles closer to the Japanese than they actually were.
Cheers,
Jon Parshall
From Lu Yu June 17, 2017
When D4Y was sent, it was intended to replace Tone #4 and keep contact with U.S. fleet. (Tone #4 later repeatedly claimed it was low on fuel, although it was in air at 1147.) It was Japanese norm (perhaps doctrine) to keep and develop contact with enemy fleet, as occurred in Indian Ocean Raid and Coral Sea. The time of D4Y launch, 0830, is probably related to 0820 report of one carrier sighted. From D4Y's track chart, it is clear that the contact was thought to be at Tone #4's reported position and the sighting of carriers is almost fortuitous.
A little more on that D4Y at Midway. Its radio message of sighting report was not received by the flagships Akagi or Nagara. But there are ships in Nagumo's force, as well as Kumano in the Invasion Force, that received D4Y's sighting report. So it is likely an error on the receiver's end or the communication interface. D4Y and Chikuma #5 performed very well, in strong contrast with Tone #4 and Chikuma #1, whose behavior was haphazard or even irresponsible. This contrast is similar to Coral Sea. On May 7th, a misidentified report sent the valuable initial attack of Zuikaku and Shokaku to a wrong target. On May 8th, the search plane kept contact with U.S. carriers, knowing it would be unable to return.
As for distance, yes, it was a key factor that makes Nagumo (Genda) think he was still safe when one carrier was reported. Even if the dive bombers could come, the fighters could not escort. And attack without escort was unfavorable in the Japanese mindset.
Lu
From Jon Parshall June 21, 2017
Lu, as always, thanks for your insights. I’m envious of your language skills.
Cheers,
Jon
Editors Note: This has been a facinating conversation between very knowledgeable historians on a subject that has probably received far too little attention on the interaction of the scout aircraft and what impact various messages had on Nagumo's decisions as well as the ones his flagship apparently missed. There has been considerable debate on how inadequate the Akagi was as a flagship due to the low Island and the radio messages that were missed before the battle. Some have suggested that the Yamato should have been included in the Striking Force as it was far superior as a flagship. However I cannot see that being even a consideration at the time. Yamato had just joined the fleet and had never worked with the Striking Force. Plus others have pointed out that Yamato didn't have the speed to keep up with the Striking Force. However Kaga was considerably slower than every other ship in the Striking Force at only a knot or two better than Yamato.
Lessons From the Battle of Midway
From Robert Jones: 4 June, 2017
Any serious student of the battle is somewhat disappointed by the simplicity of Prof. Hansen's article. Cut him some slack, he was not writing it for us; he was writing it for products of an American educational system which doesn't even teach that the battle occurred.
That said, when I read the article I wrote a few paragraphs to add to it and sent it to some friends. Pardon the poetic license, I do understand every -- every -- qualification you can make about this, but the base point is still accurate:
Every Japanese sailor and airman in the Kido Butai who woke up on the morning of 4 June 1942 knew two things:
1. This was going to be the biggest day of his life.
2. If he died, it would be an honorable death under the code of bushido.
Every American who woke up on Midway and at Point Luck on 4 June 1942 knew two things:
1. This was going to be the biggest day of his life.
2. America was going to win. Because that's what we do.
Push all the chips into the pot and show your cards, Americans are going to win! That's what the 20th Maine and the First Minnesota did on day 2, Gettysburg, what the Navy did at Coral Sea, Midway, and Leyte Gulf, Eisenhower did at D-Day, the Marines at Chosin; pick your crisis and bet on the Americans. From birth we are taught to play to win, nothing else is acceptable. The Japanese were willing to die honorable deaths, and we were unwilling to accept anything other than victory. It really was that simple.
No Japanese was any braver than the pilots of VT-8 that day, but Waldron and his men did their duty. They did not shirk from that duty even though it was suicidal, and so doing they bought their part of the great victory every American at least half believed in. We do not choose moral victories, we fight to win!
So when the search plane found the Japanese invasion fleet on the afternoon of 3 June and radioed "Sighted main body", Nimitz immediately corrected him that it was not the main force. Because Nimitz had already bet the farm and did not want there to be any confusion. Midway was for all the marbles, and we were not going to let them off.
Bob Jones
Ronald Graetz
From Tristie Graetz June 11, 2017
Per Ron's wishes, he asked that I contact his friends in his address book to inform you of his passing. Ron passed away yesterday morning, June 10th in his sleep.
A week ago today, we made the decision to have Ron discharged from the hospital and into hospice care at home. Monday morning, I picked him up from the hospital and escorted him to the 75th Anniversary of the Battle of Midway on the USS Midway. He was surrounded by family while being honored that morning. It was such a special experience especially considering Ron believed he would miss the event due to his illness. Following the ceremony, we brought him home and cared for him up until his passing. It was painless and peaceful.
He wished to be cremated and spread at sea to join his life-long love, Sally.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me:
Tristie Graetz (granddaughter)
From Barrett Tillman June 11, 2017
Not one of the photos I saw of the Midway commemoration aboard CV-41 identified the BOM vets. But no surprise that Ron was there representing his beloved Big E. Mighty glad I copied his memoir of 1941-42 back in the day. As always: DO IT NOW.
Barrett sends
From Anthony Tully June 11, 2017
It is odd, indeed. Attached is the CNO's outline, but no names mentioned. It was the first thing looked for when saw some of the pictures and captions. Of course I was on the other side of the country, also at a Midway commemoration in Norfolk. ;-)
I am so glad Ron got to attend the 75th commemoration -- he cut it close.
As for DO IT NOW --- yes, feel that way about a rescued account of Taiho and Haguro --- corresponded with a Haguro guy just shortly just a year or so before passing. Or VMSB-131 veteran who was in the attack that sank Kinugasa. Confirmed some theories (though tried to avoid leading the witness as it were)
- Tony
From James Sawruk June 11, 2017
Yes, Ron was a great one with VT-6. He flew the last combat mission in TBDs when they did not engage MOGAMI & MIKUMA at Midway. Laub had specific orders NOT to engage if any resistance was encountered. AA was still going so no drops!
Best to all,
Jim
From Barrett Tillman June 11, 2017
A damnsight better than CNO's midway night bloviations in 2009 and 2010 when he mentioned The J Word once...and not at all. Still a real stretch to say that BOM, nor the entire war, preserved American freedom (the Axis couldn't even get here) but it restored freedom to a whole lot of others.
From Barrett Tillman June 11, 2017
Quick follow-up: Normally Ron flew with Ens Rembach, who of course was KIA at BOM. Ron's mother and Rembach's established a warm correspondence almost from the time they were crewed together--a rare occurrence in my experience. Don't know how long it lasted after BOM.
BT
Editors Note: I was also curious as to who was in attendence on the Midway during the celebration. Fortunately I have a contact there that is super and she found the answer for me.
Margaret Riggs,
Hope you are doing well. The USS Midway had a commemoration of the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Midway a week ago. On board were 7 veterans of the Battle of Midway. Today I learned that Ronald Gaetz who was there sadly passed a way. I know he was very grateful to make it even though he was ill.
In all the research I did for the celebration I cannot find a list of the 7 Battle of Midway Vets that were there. Do you have a contact that would know or perhaps you have a list of their names. I'd like to put together an article for the newsletter and would think I should mention their names.
Thank you for any help.
The following is the reply I recieved. Thank you very much Margaret and Scott.
From Scott McGaugh June 11, 2017
We were honored to host the following Battle of Midway veterans aboard the USS Midway Museum:
Lieutenant Commander Geoffrey A. L. Blackman, USNR(Ret.)
Aviation Radioman Third Class Ronald W. Graetz, USN Lieutenant Commander Rudy Matz, USN(Ret.) Chief Steward Andy Mills, USN Aviation Radioman First Class Charles Monroe, USN Commander Ellis Dee Skidmore, USN(Ret.) Senior Chief Aviation Ordnanceman Ervin Wendt, USN(Ret.)
Remarkably, Mr. Graetz insisted to his family and doctor that he be checked out of Hospice for a few hours that morning so he could attend the ceremony.
Regards,
Scott McGaugh
Marketing Director
USS Midway Museum
From Barrett Tillman June 11, 2017
Thanks. Be interesting to know the ships represented.
B
From James Sawruk June 11, 2017
I would also be interested in what commands they were assigned to. Two of the names stick out besides Ron Graetz. They are Geoff Blackman from VP-23 who was assigned to Harold Lough’s crew. Lough and crew rescued a VB-8 SBD crew on the 4th north of KURE Island.
The other is Charles E. Monroe of VT-8. He was part of the relief force aboard SARATOGA CV-3 during the battle and transferred to HORNET CV-8. During the Guadalcanal Campaign, he was Robert Divine’s turret gunner in a VT-8 TBF and was credited with an air to air victory against an enemy plane on 7 November 1942 while flying from Henderson Field. Depending on who you read, it was either a float bi-plane (PETE) or a ZERO.
Thanks for sending the information,
Jim
From James Sawruk June 11, 2017
I just realized that Mr. Wendt was also part of VT-8 who flew with Swede Larsen at Guadalcanal. He also has a ½ credit for an air to air fight on 17 September 1942 against a float bi-plane.
Jim
From Ronald Russell June 15, 2017
I received an email a few days ago from the granddaughter of Ron Graetz. Ron was a truly great guy and one whose Midway and post-Midway stories are among the most fascinating. Regretfully, I cannot take the time dig that out for you nor compose a proper tribute to Ron. I hope you can do Ron justice yourself. For a starter, here's his link to our vet photos page:
http://midway42.org/RoundTableBook/Vet_Graetz.aspx
Fox News on Dusty Kleiss and the Battle of Midway
From Chuck Wohlrab June 8, 2017
I saw this today on the Fox News Website. It includes a short clip of an interview with Dusty Kleiss. Written by one of the author's of Dusty's book.
By the way, I completed reading Never Call Me a Hero on the 3rd of June. I found it both interesting and moving. I also found his comments about fellow Scouting Six pilot Clarence Dickenson interesting. I have a copy of Dickenson's book (under the title Flying Guns) published in the 1940s, that I bought years ago via one of the used book sites. I was also interested to hear the Dusty Kleiss had written a previous book, VS-6 Log of the War. I went looking for it and found that a copy had sold on Russian eBay in 2015, for $499.13. From what I could find out about the book it includes copies of Dusty's flight logbook and other primary source documents, including the VS-6 Action Reports. Obviously a very valuable resource for authors.
Battle of Midway dive bomber pilot with direct hits on two Japanese carriers: 'Never call me a hero'
Chuck Wohlrab
Fred Bergeron
From John K. Landry June 9, 2017
Fred P. Bergeron, who flew with VB-3 at Midway, passed away recently. Fred and Dallas, his brother, were radiomen/gunners who flew from the Yorktown on the flight against the Japanese carrier Soryu. On the second flight that day against the Japanese carrier Hiryu, the brothers flew from the Enterprise because of damage to the Yorktown. In this second flight, Dallas was wounded and didn't fly again at Midway. On the first day's two flights, Fred's pilot was Robert H. Benson and Dallas' was Milford A. Merrill. On the second day, Fred's plane failed to start, and he flew with Robert K. Campbell against the Japanese cruiser Mikuma.
Fred, in his seventies, wrote a notebook of his naval experience meant only for his children and grandchildren. In the notebook, he wrote of seeing the Doolittle bombers take off from the Hornet and his time at Henderson Field on Guadalcanal.
The following are quotes from his notebook: “What followed was the 'Battle of Midway' in June 1942. With the Saratoga still under repairs in the states, Bombing Squadron 3 was assigned to what was to become the ill-fated U.S.S. Yorktown, a ship that had been badly damaged in the Coral Sea.”
“Battle of Midway -- part of day one (Take off from the U.S.S. Yorktown at day break)”
“It's not bad enough seeing this huge Japanese fleet of unfriendly people picking off our torpedo planes one at a time as well as the huge amount of anti-aircraft fire exploding near us, half-way through our dive, I receive a terrible blow to the back of my head. My thought was, 'they got me.' I reached behind my head to see how much was left, and found that I was temporarily holding my pilot's goggles and helmet. His bare head was to one side of the cockpit and he was concentrating on lining up on the target carrier below. (I began breathing again.) The wind jerked the helmet and goggles from my hand, and I later passed mine forward to the pilot.”
“Our bomb was one of the group that caused the carrier to sink. For a while, as we were skimming over the water trying to evade the barrage of gunfire, my thought was, maybe we shouldn't have done that. Now we've made them mad at us!! When you're facing the rear and your plane is moving away, you have a front row seat to view what they are throwing at you! But things got worse when we got to the Yorktown. Japanese planes began attacking the Yorktown (our 'home base').”
Fred later related that his plane was two planes from landing and his pilot had Fred's helmet and earphones on when they were instructed to fly to the other carriers.
Fred continues: “My worse moments of this war were, following each engagement, wondering if Dallas had survived as I had. This was particularly true when his plane was the last to be taken aboard the Enterprise as the Yorktown was sinking. It didn't matter that his plane was full of holes and that he was wounded! He was alive and in good spirits. Gunfire from a Japanese plane had hit his left leg and right foot. Gratefully helping to lift him from his plane is a scene that I have replayed in my mind many times!”
Dallas' plane had been attacked by two Zero fighter planes and badly damaged, which made it difficult for the pilot to fly. On landing, the plane careened off the flight deck and into a gun emplacement where Fred and others removed Dallas from the plane. Seeing an after action report many years later, Fred calculated he spent 23 agonizing minutes waiting for Dallas.
After the war, Fred received an electrical engineering degree from the University of Texas and went to work for ALCOA. Later he served as their Texas area manager, and ALCOA provided him with a company plane. Fred was extremely reticent about his naval career, so no one at ALCOA knew about his naval service. However, he sometimes wondered if his pilots, who were always concerned about making carefully smooth landings, would have been as concerned if they knew of his many carrier landings and a onetime crash into a barrier he experienced.
John K. Landry
Jim Hanford - The Shattered Sword Yahoo Group
From Anthony J. Hanford June 17, 2017
I am Anthony "Tony" Hanford, son on Mr. James M. "Jim" Hanford. I regret to inform you and the group that Jim passed away early on 09 May 2017 of natural causes. We held his funeral on 16 May 2017.
Jim is a graduate of the U. S. Naval Academy and served ten years in the Navy as an officer. He later worked for Ford Motor Company. In retirement, he was very interested in both Christian theology and military history, and he contributed to the latter interest here with this Yahoo Group. (He even worked on posts for this group when he visited my family on vacations!)
Recently I joined this group both to share a love of history and to provide feedback to the group as necessary, especially if ill health prevented Jim from contributing.
For the sake of completeness, Jim / Dad requested that his electronic accounts be closed upon his passing. I am sure at some point his Yahoo account will be closed, although I am not sure when... (There may be good reasons to keep it open to close out certain functions and/or the credentials for those accounts may not be known... My Sister is handling most of those arrangements as she lives closer to my Parent's home than I do.) However, if you are able, please close Dad's account to this group (...or at least be very suspicious of any users of Dad's account!)
Thank you for your time and may God Bless you!
Tony
Editors Note: My condolences to Anthony Hanford. For those not familiar with the site Jim Hanford devoted many hours of his time and effort to make it a valuable contribution to the history of The Battle of Midway. As he says in the introduction page he was inspired by the book 'The Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway' by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully. While some of the information was the same between the RoundTable and The Shattered Sword for the most part they were two totally different venues. The Shattered Sword Group had a lot of pictures that Mr. Hanford hunted down and published. He also added some files written from a personal perspective by those that were there. It is also more of a conversation site as you can subscribe to emails sent by other members so you get them immediately when they are posted. I don't think the group is taking any more members at the moment but I am not sure. I'm also not sure if it will continue. But I
believe as long as the moderators don't close it down it will remain on Yahoo. I have been a member of a defunct group on Yahoo since 2005 and it's still available if I log in so have to think this will remain as well.
Mr. Hanford and I traded thoughts on various subjects relating to the Battle of Midway from time to time and even though I didn't know him well I will still miss the posts on the site from him. Thank you 'Jim' for all your hard work on the group and the common interest friendship if I may. It's been a pleasure knowing you.
Announcements and Questions
Why the Japanese Lost at Midway
From Timothy Tynan
June 4, 2017
Just saw this article and thought it might be of interest to the forum.
James Holmes - Why the Japanese Lost at Midway
CSPAN also has videos of the 75th Anniversary speakers.
Enjoy,
Tim
Thank You
From James Leffler, Jr June 4, 2017
I know this will arrive too late, as I’m sending it on the 4th of June, but I wanted to thank not only all of the surviving Midway vets on the Roundtable, but all of the WWII veterans that see and contribute to the BOMRT. Thanks as well that have gone to their reward. The World, in my opinion, would be a much different place without them.
Thank You.
Sincerely, James Leffler, Jr
A1C, U S Air Force veteran
The format
From Van A.. Harvey June 5, 2017
To whom it may concern: When you print the Round Table against a bright blue background it is difficult to read some of the print that falls on the background. For those of us old naval veterans of WWII (I am now 91) our eyes are failing and we like as much clarity as we can get.
Thank you.
Van A.. Harvey
Professor Emeritus, Stanford U.
Ensign (USNR)
Editors Note: I think we figured this out. If you set your monitor to display large print, i.e. more than 100% then the text bleeds off the right side of the white over the background image. But if anyone else has any problems or even suggestions on how the site is formatted or how it could be better by all means please let me know.
Remembered Sky BOM tributes
From Barrett Tillman June 5, 2017
http://rememberedsky.com/?cat=14
BOMRT Shout Out
From Ron Thorson June 5, 2017
As we (those that are intrigued by, and/or comprehend the significance of the Battle of Midway) commemorate the 75 year milestone, I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank all those who have made the Round Table possible. It is quite the calling to collect, review, collate, then assemble all the data, comments and inputs into neat chronologic news letters that serve as "go-to" archives for us Naval Aviation history buff members. If you currently do contribute, or have done so in the past, please know your effort have not been in vain. As a retired Navy Chief that has been a novice Naval Historian all my life (fifty + years), it is of my opinion that BOMRT is the official benchmark of excellence of not only the Battle of Midway itself, but also anything (i.e. persons, tactics, aircraft, naval vessels, etc.) that have a connection to this snap-shot in history. The Round Table's ability to screen books, movies, comments/eye witness accounts and documentaries for accuracy
and truth, give it the utmost credibility that is beyond reproach. I "selfishly" ask you to keep up the good work and carry on smartly. Imagine, if all of today's youth (college age and younger) really understood and appreciated the urgency and sacrifice of Americans from the circa 1942 generations; how much stronger our great republic could be, safe the citizens would be, and how easy the rest of us should sleep knowing true freedom can be securely passed on to them intact.
Respectfully,
Ron Thorson
USN Retired
Wade McClusky
From Timothy Tynan June 4, 2017
Found these two articles about Wade McClusky on FB and thought they be of interest. I thought the first one was more interesting.
Son surprises officials with Battle of Midway hero's WWII war medals
75 years after Midway, U.S. Navy hero honored in N.Y. hometown
SBD Questions
From Jesse Tetrault June 8, 2017
I have lurked the BOMRT for several years purchasing several of the books including No Right to Win. I am a CGI hobbyist who likes to try and recreate WWII footage (Black and white scratches etc). To that end I have several questions I’d like to put to the BOMRT on the specific aspects of a SBD attack, things like how they initiate a dive (footage tends to show a wing over) when do the dive breaks get deployed, when does the bomb swing out on it’s (and here I lack the proper term sorry) V shaped holder? Also I have some questions about squadron markings.
Thanks!
Jesse Tetrault
Ray Davis and VB6 in SOPAC in 42 in the May Newsletter
From Randy Golonka June 15, 2017
You are probably aware of this, but Hugh Ambrose has some lengthly discussion (in his book The Pacific) on VB6’s time (with Ray Davis and the primary subject of Ambrose, Lt. Vernon Micheel) on Guadalcanal in 1942, after Enterprise was damaged. Hugh Ambrose may be a further source of info on Ray Davis for Mr. Wood.
Best of luck and good hunting.
Randy Golonka
Midway Casualty
From Rex Reed June 19, 2017
I am writing a memoir of a World War II veteran. This individual had a sister whose fiancé was shot down in the battle of Midway. He believes the name of the man who was shot down was Alan Dent. I am respectfully requesting if anyone can confirm that someone by the name of Alan Dent was shot down in the battle of Midway.
Thank you.
Rex Reed
Editors Note: I'm sorry but I don't have that person listed in any squadron during the Battle of Midway either as a pilot or crewman. Course memories are funny and that may not be his name or maybe it's a variation of some kind. Here is a link to the casualties on the American side that we have on our website.
Midway KIA
Not sure that will help as I looked through it and didn't see his name but you're welcome to double check.
In order to help more maybe they could provide some additional information like if he was Navy or Army and even more detail like a fighter pilot, or maybe squadron, or ship he served on. Anything can help. But from a first pass his name does not appear on any list of personnel flying during the battle.
From Rex Reed
June 20, 2017
Thank you for your rapid reply. I appreciate your efforts in attempting to identify this individual.
The subject of my memoir is a 92-year-old veteran, so it is possible that he could be mistaken on the name. According to my veteran friend, however, the man who was shot down was in the Navy and he was a pilot. Because the man who was apparently shot down was the fiancé of my veteran friends sister, I would think that he would be correct on the name. It is entirely possible that I am not hearing the name correctly on the recording I have. Unfortunately, my veteran friend lives in another state, whereas he used to live in the same town as me. Perhaps I will try to reach him on the phone and see if I can get clarification on the name.
Again, thank you so much for your efforts.
Rex
MIA for the Battle of Midway
From MILNER, Melissa J Maj USAF JS OCJCS (US) June 21, 2017
What is the number of MIA for the Battle of Midway?
Thanks.
MELISSA J. MILNER, Maj, USAF
Public Affairs Advisor to the Vice Chairman
Joint Chiefs of Staff
Pentagon, Rm 2D932
Editors Note: Thank you for contacting us. That is a really good question and it depends a lot on circumstances. While all the men lost in the Navy squadrons or ships were technically MIA their fate was well known so how they were classified at the time and then again later I don't have the answer at the moment. There is a comprehensive list on the RoundTable that is a casualty list but it is for all kia. Let me see if there is someone on the RoundTable that has a list of personnel still listed as mia.
Question about "The Flight to Nowhere"
From Rob Bailey June 28, 2017
I am a long time lurker who appreciates this website very much.
Regarding "The Flight to Nowhere," I have a question about the theory that Pete Mitscher and Stanhope Ring were looking for a second Japanese carrier group. I am a civilian so I am not familiar with the nature of the communication of orders. But I find it hard to understand why Mitscher and Ring would not have let the squadron commanders in on the revised objective, especially in light of John Waldron's strong opposition on the Hornet bridge during their final instructions.
Then fifteen minutes into the flight, when Waldron broke radio silence with "You're going the wrong direction for the Japanese carrier force," wouldn't Ring have responded with something like "we are going for a second carrier group" instead of "I'm leading this flight... you fly on us?" And when Waldron said, "I know where they are and I'm going to them," it seems Ring finally would have let him in on the revised plans instead of letting the squadrons be divided and weakened.
On the other hand, there are no clean alternative options to describe why Ring went due west.
I love this website and all the history contained in it. Thank you for continuing the forum.
Editors Note: First of all thank you for reading the newsletters and our web site. As for the reasons things went the way they did was largely due to command structure. Ring was the flight leader, thus it was up to him to decide what to do and he really didn't have to explain himself to anyone. Too rigid I know but that's the way it was. Had Waldron broke off and not found the Japanese carriers and Ring did it was likely he would have been court martialed. There is even some that think that if he had survived the battle even though he was right that he would have been court martialed. If we had lost the battle there is little doubt that he would have been even if he did find the carriers and Ring did not. Just the way things worked back then.
Compare what Ring did to what McClusky did. Same thing. McClusky lead his flight dangerously past the point of no return to go another 35 miles past the intercept point and only circumstances and a lucky break lead him to the Japanese fleet as he was returning home. Let's just say that he had missed too. We'd be having the same conversation about him and Lindsey who did find the Japanese fleet before McClusky at roughly the same time as Waldron and Massey of VT3. In fact the only carrier group that found the Japanese carriers relatively easy was Yorktown's group. For the most part you can forgive how the US operated in the battle. None of the carrier squadrons, except VS5 (which was really VB5 but renamed for the battle) had any experience in carrier battles. After all there was only one carrier that had been in a carrier battle, and that was Yorktown. Even the 4 Japanese carriers had never been in a carrier battle before and as it turns out it showed. Compare Japanese performance
between Midway to the Battle of Santa Cruz. Big difference.
As for why Ring went due west I think Walter Lord in his book Incredible Victory explains it somewhat. Ring flew to the spot where the Japanese carriers were spotted while McClusky flew to where the Japanese carriers could have possibly traveled directly towards Midway since being spotted.
Neither was right as it turned out but McClusky's plan was slightly better, and I say only slightly, because he knew that if he didn't spot them where he thought they'd be they could only be in one direction. Ring on the other hand had a different decision. Since he only had their original position they could literately be anywhere and even though some of his flight did turn south and towards Midway and flew down the path the Japanese fleet were taking towards Midway they had no way of knowing that by this time they had spotted the American carriers and were heading east and towards the US carriers.
From Rob Bailey June 28, 2017
Its interesting how people have looked at John Waldron over the years. I live within 5 miles from NAS Corpus Christi, where he went through flight training. The road leading to the main gate is Waldron Rd, and one of the outlying fields owned by the Navy that supports NASCC is called Waldron Field. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question!
Rob
|